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Niki: I'm Niki Christoff and welcome to Tech’ed Up. Today in the studio, I'm joined by Jill Hazelbaker, who's the Senior Vice President of Marketing and Public Affairs at Uber.

We're talking about her career path from politics through a number of startups and big public tech companies. She finds herself back in Washington.

You've rejoined us here in the swamp.

Jill: I have [Niki: Which we're excited about] We're six months in. We got here in August. My family of five.

Niki: Well, welcome.

Jill: Thank you. Thank you.

Niki: So we, I want to quickly start how we know each other. Yes. We overlapped in all these unusual ways, which was we were both on the McCain campaign, although we didn't know each other at the time, then found ourselves in Silicon Valley.

Jill: Which is sort of hard to believe that we didn't bump into each other on the campaign.

Niki: I know, but we could talk about losing presidential campaigns [chuckling] and how that informs how we've turned out as professionals. [Jill: Resilience is important] There's nothing like being in a foxhole.

And so we started out in politics, then sat next to each other in Mountain View, sort of during the golden age of Google, and you've had this career where you went from Google to Snap to Uber and then have risen through the ranks at Uber into this huge job.

And I think listeners will be really interested in business lessons you've learned along the way, and then also some professional advice that you have. How did politics inform who you are today as a professional?

Jill: So I think in politics you have to be a generalist, right? You're dropped into a state or a city or any sort of environment where you don't know the local players, you don't know the topography, you have to figure it out really, really quickly. Now of course in politics, there's an end date, there's an election day.

That's not the same in tech businesses but I think this kind of, the speed, the intensity, the urgency, the idea that you wake up every day with a mission is very similar to my experience in politics, or in, in technology. And I also think that at the time that I came to Silicon Valley, which was sort of late 2009, early 2010, these companies were just beginning to understand that they needed to hire campaigners.

Niki: Right. Which is how you ended up there. [Jill: Exactly!] Let's go just back up a couple ticks. So you did campaigns around the country.

Jill: I did. I'd pack up my car and move from state to state.

Niki: I think this is actually one of the secrets to your career, and you and I are different in this way.

Jill: I think I moved eight times in a decade for different campaigns. And then in my tech career, I moved from Mountain View, um, where I was with Google running corporate communications to London to run policy and communications across Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

I moved to LA to work for Snap when it was sort of a, a baby startup. And then, uh, back to San Francisco for Uber. And now, to Washington, D. C., which is a new adventure for my family.

Niki: I think your flexibility on that has opened a lot of doors for you.

Jill: Y’know, I think a lot about what our old boss at Google used to say.

Eric Schmidt had this saying where he'd say, “Try to say yes. Try to find a reason to say yes to new opportunities, to new jobs. to meeting new people, and that that tends to open doors.”

And, y’know, I'm not going to sit here and say that it's all been rainbows and unicorns. I have three children, eight and under. It's not easy to kind of pick up and reorient your life. But there's also something really exciting about it, and it certainly expands your perspective in new and different ways, which I've found to be useful to me

Niki:.Right. So speaking of useful to you, so we didn't overlap on the McCain campaign because people might forget this. He was the presumptive [Jill: yes!] front-runner for the Republican nomination [Jill: Yes!]  in 2006, 2007. I was here in Washington on the policy team and you were on the comms team in New Hampshire. Correct. And then, well, maybe you explain what happened.

Jill: So, McCain took what I considered to be a very principled vote on immigration, um, and it absolutely destroyed the campaign.

He went from, as you said, the presumptive nominee to ashes really almost overnight. The fundraising dried up. We had to let go of a lot of staff, [Niki: me!] [both laugh] including most of my men- including my friends, and all of my mentors who had hired me and given me this great opportunity to move to New Hampshire to be the communications director for the first in the nation primary state.

And I'll be honest, I called my father from my, my father's since passed, but he was a very important figure in my life. And I called him from Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and I said, “Dad, y’know, this isn't really going very well and, and all my friends are either being fired or they're leaving the campaign.”

And, y’know, maybe, maybe I should just come home. And he said, “Jill, what are you talking about? You don't quit on a war hero.” And so it really bucked me up. [chuckling] And I, I said, well, “Well, actually, when you put it that way, that's pretty clear.”

And so I, I stayed with Senator McCain. Of course, the whole ballgame became New Hampshire, right? [Niki: right]

We were really the whole strategy. We were really strapped for cash. And so, a lot of times it was me and John McCain, carrying his suitcase onto a Southwest flight and, y’know, hoofing it around the great state of New Hampshire. And man, did I learn a lot about, about politics, and about leadership, and about grit, and courage, and audacity.

Niki: And about managing a principal!

Jill: A hundred percent. And he was, [chuckling]

Niki: You and I both.

Jill: [laughing] He was a tricky principal.

Niki: People don't know this. I have a lot of stories about, this kind of goes to your point about campaign. So I was an attorney. I had worked in polling. I was on the policy team and certain things that I would do, he had made a sort of unfortunate comment about not knowing how many homes he had [chuckling]

[Jill: Yes]  So to try to make him seem more relatable, we had to put him in a sweater. [Jill: Yes]  Sweaters. [Jill: Yes]  This is like for tips for anybody [chuckling] Take people out of suits if you're trying to make them seem more relatable.

So I had to put him in a sweater and because of course his arms [Jill: Yes]  had been so, so harmed when he was tortured in Vietnam, trying to put Senator John McCain in a sweater [chuckling]

Jill: And then having to comb his hair after, [chuckling] which he also did not enjoy being fussed over.

Niki: But it taught I think probably both of us something about working with principals and I think for you, so when I was let go they were actually repossessing the cubicle walls and I was like, “Oh boy, time for me to go!” Time for me to go and my former spouse was going to Stanford for business school.

That's how I ended up in tech. I got laid off the campaign and I just-

Jill: California sounds good.

Niki: To move to Palo Alto and get a job.

Jill: Life's rough.

Niki: I know your dad has been, and certainly was such a mentor to you and had such good advice in your career. I know many times over the years you've mentioned things he said to kind of

Jill: Lance Hazelbaker-isms, yes.

There's many of them.

Niki: Yes, just bucking you up. [Jill: Yes] And convincing you to stay led you to become one of the first, probably youngest women-

Jill: female communications directors. [Jill: Yes] For a presidential campaign.

Jill: Yeah, it was, it turned out to be quite a big deal and a pivotal role [Niki: it surely did] and I am forever grateful to John Sidney McCain for taking a chance on a young Jill Hazelbaker and for giving me that opportunity and the McCain family is still really important to me today.

I sit on the board of the McCain Institute and I, y’know, I think about, I think about Senator McCain all the time and, and what he taught me during that period. And also, as you say, about learning to manage a principal and being unafraid to give your unvarnished opinion, which is, I think, something that I have done a lot in my career in different capacities.

And it was, It was a skill that was really honed following John McCain around because he didn't suffer fools. 

[Niki: Right] And if you weren't prepared, he would tear the bark off you. [Niki: He would!] And I was a, I was a young woman. I was 27, 28 years old when I was the communications director surrounded by, y’know, mid-40s men who were his, his sort of trusted confidants and, and lieutenants.

And you couldn't sit there as a wallflower. You needed to bring a perspective, have a point of view and then be willing to argument, argue on your own behalf. So it was a, it was a great experience, a pivotal experience for me. There's no doubt.

Niki: Which leads to, I don't know if you recall the day we met, you, you may not. [Jill: Take me back]

I'll take you back [chuckling] So, after McCain, you went to Google and then they said, “Oh, Jill's coming here. Do you know her?” And I said, “No, we kind of didn't overlap because I got laid off right as she was like rising in the ranks.”   [Jill: Right, right] And you were on like a Noogler bus. [Jill: Oh, yes] Noogler bus. [Jill: Yes] An orientation.

And they brought you into this room where we were [Jill: Yes!] deciding to pull out of China [Jill: the China thing] and I remember you walked into this room with the founders of Google [Jill: chuckles] and Eric Schmidt, the CEO and the Chief Legal Officer, David Drummond, who became my boss. And one of the things I watched you do was exactly what you just said, which was like, have a perspective immediately [chuckling] when you were day one on the job.

Jill: Go time. Yeah.

Niki: Yeah. Which is a real skill. So then you came in and did that, and I remember, this leads to the point about campaigners. So you already had, y’know, you'd done the hardest things on the national stage that were so big. So, then being able to say, “Hey, we need to do op-eds and we need to do editorial boards and we need to-”

Jill: Seemed pretty straight.

Surround sound was a new skill for Google at that point.

Niki: Right. So, let's talk a little bit about your time at Google and how things shifted that you started out doing corporate communications. You ended up moving to London, but we were sort of there during this era [Jill: Yes!] when things changed.

Jill: Yes! So that is, it's such a funny story.

I was; Google has a, as you say, a Noogler orientation where [Niki: They have beanies!] Exactly. You arrive and I don't know how it, how it operates now, but back in those days you arrived and with your class of Nooglers and you were loaded onto a bus, and I'm sure there was some sort of five-star catered lunch and the smartest people you've ever met as, as the introductory speakers.

Anyway, I was on the bus for about seven minutes when I got a call from my then boss, Rachel Whetstone saying, “I need you to come to this, this room right now.’ [Niki: chuckles] And I said, well, “I'm sort of on this bus and I'm not sure I'm supposed to get off.” And she said, “I need you to get off!” And I sort of. I hung up the phone and kind of thought about it for a bit, maybe five minutes or so.

And honest to God, I look up and I see Sergey Brin and Rachel Whetstone and David Drummond, who was then the Chief Legal Officer at Google, on Google bikes. [Niki: laughs] They had ridden out to find the bus to get me to disembark the bus!

So I got off the bus, I got on a bike, and then we went over to this, to this room where Eric and Larry and, and a bunch of the senior security engineers were. And they sort of explained to me what was, was going on. I thought, “Well, that's big!” And right away I knew you needed to get people out on, at that point, evening news was still quite a thing. You needed to get people on evening news. We needed an op-ed that was going to articulate Google's position. You needed third parties and human rights activists in that case arguing on Google's behalf.

And it was; I felt like I didn't totally understand what I was going to do at Google. [Niki: I remember, yeah!] I really truly didn't know the difference between an operating system and a browser. I was like not a tech person. I'd taken John McCain to Google  in 2008 during the campus tour.

And I remember, y’know, seeing the huge dinosaur outside of Charlie's Cafe, and people playing beach volleyball at two o'clock in the afternoon, and the founders were on stage introducing the Senator, shoeless, and Sergey might have been on roller skates, and I thought, “Wow, this is very different from the world that I come from, but it sounds pretty fun.” [Niki: chuckling]

And so, prior to arriving there, I wasn't entirely sure what I was going to contribute, but in that room, I figured it out pretty quickly that I had a skill set that would be useful to, to Google at that point in time.

Niki: Right. And I remember they kept talking about Google.com.CN, which was Google in China, [Jill: China, yes!] and I remember afterwards you kind of indicated to me,

Jill: What is that? [chuckling]

Niki: You said, what is it? And I thought, “My gosh, this woman just came in [Jill: laughs]  and told all of these senior billionaire executives what they needed to do. And they were so relieved, [Jill: Yeah] which I think is actually a skill too. They want somebody to tell them the next thing to do when it’s very high stakes.

You've done the hardest thing ever, which is a presidential campaign in the comms world, I think.

And so, then you come in with this confidence and tell them what to do and they need that. And I think tech now, obviously, a lot of companies are looking for that kind of political talent, people who can come in and have that spine and perspective and they move fast and can absorb things very quickly.

Jill: Y’know I think Google just hadn’t done a lot that at that point, understanding how to materially influence a climate of opinion, how to build alliances, how to get third parties to advocate on your behalf.

All of the things that you're doing in a campaign, managing your stakeholders, managing elite media at the highest level. Those were just things that were not top of mind for the company. And they were in this real honeymoon period of kind of lava lamps and bouncy balls and 2 p.m.

Niki: Oh, the lava lamps! I forgot about that.

Jill: 2 p.m. Volleyball.

Niki:  Tea time and volleyball. Right. I remember they got rid of tea time after the 2008 crash.

Jill: I missed that!

Niki: People lost their minds [chuckling].

Jill: I think I missed tea time.

Niki:And, and so it was sort of the beginning, the beginning of this, this shift for Google.

Jill: Right.

Niki: And not because Google is not nefarious, but big is often equal to bad.

Jill: Yeah, I think as companies become bigger, as they become more powerful as the founders and executives get richer, people inherently become more skeptical of their motives.

And that's why it becomes, I think, so important to go back to basics, to articulate what your company does for, for its consumers.

Y’know, why your product is great and better than the competition, and then with your success, how you're going to contribute to society.

And most companies get a honeymoon period, and you would be very wise to use it to think about those arguments and think about your allies, and, y’know, our old boss Rachel used to say, “To use a friend, you need to have made one first.”

And it's a simple idea, but it's absolutely true. And it's just, it's not always the way that these companies are architected in the early days.

Niki: Which is a really nice segue into your next chapter. [both laugh] Well, actually, you then went to Snap.

Jill: I did. Which was tricky. I mean, at the time, Evan, the CEO, was, I mean,

Niki: He was so young.

Jill: He was. He was, I think 23 or 24. Evan is an incredibly smart guy, and he is one of the most creative people I have ever met. I went to Snap because Eric Schmidt had said to me, you know, “At some point in time in your career, you're going to want to see a technology business built from the ground up.”

And that really stuck with me, so I wanted to go to kind of a, a baby company. It was quite a shift going from Google after I had run corporate communications in Mountain View. I went to Europe and ran policy and communications for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa at the time of Google's first antitrust inquiry in Brussels. And that was kind of the beginning of, of this investigatory phase and there was a lot of attention on the company.

Snap was still a really small consumer app, beloved by a younger demographic and I think there were 200 employees at the company, so just a very different experience than I had had, than I'd had at Google.

Niki: So you were in Los Angeles for that and then our boss [JIll: yes!]  I mean, it is sort of this funny thing where you end up when you've been in, again, like the trenches with somebody, you end up working together again.

Jill: Yeah, there's a bit of a Google mafia too!

Niki: There's a huge, [cross-talk] absolutely.

Jill: People who had worked together who really knew each other and kind of came up during this period.

Niki: Well, and from that particular period where government relations and communications were combined. 

{Jill: Exactly!]  Which they aren't now at Google but they were in the same department because it was all considered part of a campaign strategy.

So you ended up going to Uber after that. Any lessons on Uber? Because you were just saying the idea of you'd be wise to build these third parties during the honeymoon period.

Jill: Yeah, that was not the strategy that Uber took in the early days.

Y’know, again, I was in L.A. and actually, Uber's founder, Travis Kalanick, is from L.A., and we got to know each other a bit, and they had a pretty significant communications and public affairs apparatus. David Plouffe was actually still around at that point, Rachel Whetstone, and a lot of really seasoned players, and I sort of thought, “What would I, what would I do there?”

Y’know, you've got really good advice from really great people, and then I spent a lot more time with Travis and kind of understood Uber, and I thought, “Wow, there's a lot of barnacles on that boat.” [Niki: laughs] And there's a lot of things that somebody like me could do and, y’know, it was this fascinating company.

It was the most valuable private startup in the world. It was at the intersection of things that I really care about and I'm excited about: technology, media, politics, this international flavor that Uber brings because it operates in thousands of cities and dozens of countries around the world. And so I, I made the jump and I, I went full circle from Mountain View to London to L.A. back to San Francisco.

Niki: And so, this is how we-

Jill: Seven months pregnant!

Niki: Seven months pregnant, I remember. [Jill: Yes]  And this is how we ended up reconnecting professionally. 

[Jill: Yes]  Because I had moved to D.C. with Google and had kind of tapped out on the comm side. I couldn't go anywhere else and needed to add in government relations if you're going to be in this town.

And so, we talked and I came over and it was-

Jill: Come on board!

Niki: Boy!  It was right before a really tough period. [Jill: Yes] Intense period.[Jill:  Intense period]  for the company when a few things that we specialize in became really important, which was crisis communications. And also, at Uber one of the things I loved about working there and you probably enjoy too is the policy issues, the government relations issues are existential to the business.

Jill: A hundred percent. [Niki: It's not an add-on] That's the thing that really has kept me there at Uber. First of all, I love the product. I love the company. I think what we do in terms of providing transportation for people around the world and an earning opportunity for now almost 7 million people is incredibly important.

And so I really, I, I love what I do, but, but to your point, campaigning is core to Uber. Having the right message, being able to articulate it. And I think people tend to overcomplicate this bit quite a bit. It's about building a successful company, stating why your product is in service to your consumer, in our case also to our earner, and then how you're going to give back to society with your success.

Y’know, being able to do that for, for Uber has just been an incredible privilege but the policy piece, y’know, it is whether we can operate in a given market. We're still blocked from launching some of our products in some of the biggest markets in the world. So there's a lot of green field and a lot of growth ahead of us.

And then of course, y’know, as you get more sophisticated, there's having a marketing that can amplify your messages and target in particular to audiences that we care about has been really important for Uber. And so having all of these different functions that are sort of singing off the same hymn sheet has been pretty effective for us in terms of building the business internationally.

Niki: And internationally, that was one of the things that was interesting to me too. So I didn't really do that much with too many of the different markets except I did all of the embassies that were here. I remember sort of trotting in, head in my hands, to the embassies

Jill: the apology tour.

Niki: yes, [chuckling] the apology tour. [Jill: Yes] Yes. And I think that that though, the idea and maybe talk a little bit about that. of how it's so decentralized because the whole world is. It's very different for people in different places. And Uber is unique in some ways.  [Jill: Yes] You don't have the same product everywhere. The dynamics with, as you said, earners, drivers, riders,  [Jill: Yes] the government, the culture, is different in every way every country.

Jill: I was just in Brazil last week and fastest growing product is, is Moto. Two wheels, which is a great example of this kind of individuality of the products and services that we offer on a market basis. In India we have three wheels. So there, there's this hugely local flavor to how Uber operates.

It's very different than Google or Meta or Snap, which are, y’know, you have a product that you ship internationally and the look and feel of it is, is broadly the same. Of course, it's localized in terms of language, but and most of your government relations issues happen in Washington or they happen in Brussels.

But for Uber you're fighting it out on a city by city, state by state, country by country level. And y’know, that, that fight continues for us in terms of articulating why it's better for earners to maintain their independence and their independent contractor status. That work is, is much more advanced than it was when you were at Uber, but it, it continues and the job isn't done yet.

Niki: Right! I mean, I remember we weren't even legal in Austin or Vancouver.

Jill: Yes. [chuckles] Well, we did a 50-state strategy.

Niki: We did a 50-state strategy!

Jill: Uber's early days were sort of “The bridges we burn light the way” [Niki: laughs]  and, y’know, there were, there were parts of that that were appropriate because it was an entirely new technology. You had a very powerful incumbent in taxi that had entrenched interest and was astute in terms of local giving and local lobbying.

And so, there was part of this where you just couldn't wait for permission, but when you do that, you need to be prepared for the fact that you're setting yourself back in terms of the inevitable, which is, y’know, becoming part of the fabric of a community requires that you have relationships with local policymakers. And when you've barnstormed your way into the market [Niki: right], it's harder for you to build those relationships over time.

Niki: And when you don't have a reservoir of goodwill [Jill: 100%], and then you make a mistake or, y’know, bungle something or an error in judgment, which every company does,

Jill: There's no infrastructure.

Niki: There’s no infrastcrutre! And so one of the things about Uber that I found both frustrating and interesting was that we did so many good things for drunk driving.

Jill: One hundred percent! And we still do!

Niki: For getting seniors rides. For getting veterans who needed to make money when they were transitioning to the private sector.

Jill:  Immigrants whose first port of call is often an Uber job.

Niki: Grandparents trying to earn 400 bucks to send their grandkids to, y’know, camp for the summer. [Jill: Yes]

And people really had a hard time hearing that message because of some chaotic business decisions. [Jill: Yes] So then you've spent, I mean, I ended up leaving in 2017. [Jill: Yeah] So, over the last few years, you guys have really professionalized that situation.

Jill: We have, y’know, we have!  I think, for us, y’know, boots on the ground are really your physical manifestation in a country and how you turn up actually matters.

And so, having people who are,who are local, who are of the community, who understand that that's your membership ticket and who are willing to do it. willing to articulate and advocate for the company and talk about all of the benefits of which you just described many of them. Talk about those consistently.

We are a local player and so we need to, to show up like one. And again, it, y’know, it comes back to “repetition doesn't spoil the prayer.” Talking about the benefits of the product, the benefits of the technology, who's actually using it, why they're using it, and over time you end up making a lot of progress.

Niki: Yeah. Okay. Can we talk about something? This might be slightly controversial[Jill: Please!],  but I suspect you have an opinion on it. Politics in an election year in the workplace.

Jill: Oh, boy. Y’know, what I say to our employees often, because this is a topic that, that comes up a lot, is that our job is to advocate for issues where we can have a direct and tangible impact.

And so for Uber, that's around safety. Y’know, we're putting 25 million people in hunks of metal together every single hour, and safety has to be top of mind. And things like Mothers Against Drunk Driving and working with organizations like that is important for us.

Sustainability. I believe that Uber can have a significant impact in terms of greening the planet by electrifying our fleet and getting infrastructure in city centers where earners can take advantage of them, but also in the neighborhoods where they actually live. And we can work with local governments on those sorts of initiatives.

And then, of course, future of work, which Uber has been instrumental in terms of defining. Those are the areas in which we can, we can play and we can really make a lot of progress. And that's important.

We are not here to narrate the world on everyone's, for lack of better term, and I understand that that is a bit of a letdown for, for some folks, but that's the way that I really think about this.

I also think because Uber is so international, where we're operating in 80 countries and over 10, 000 cities, that most of our employees don't wake up every day thinking about what's happening in American politics. Now I continue to believe that a strong American president is important for everyone in the world, but that isn't top of mind for them in terms of how they're doing their jobs.

And so, I think that when you over index on a particular election, it's, it's not, it's not good for the company. So that's how we're approaching it. I'm sure that it is that idea is going to be tested in many ways over the next six or so months.

But that's my personal opinion on how we should go about it.

Niki: I agree with that. I find that there, it's almost an unsolvable riddle, especially because there's this idea that tech companies have a uniform employee base [Jill: of course] and that they all agree. And they do not.

Jill: And neither do our earners. Right?

Niki: That's right.

They don't either. And, and to your point, there are international markets that have completely different issues [JIll: absolutely] that matters to them. And I agree. If there's, if there is a political issue or culture issue that's directly tied to Sure to the service you're providing. [JIll: Sure] Then getting involved makes sense.

Jill: And I think the abortion is a good example of this, where we were pretty proactive about communicating to owners that if they were carrying a passenger over state lines who might be visiting an abortion clinic and something happened that we would, we had a role to play there. And that's an, that's an example of a social issue where Uber has,has a right to have an opinion, where we would engage. But y’know, by and large, what I say to people is if you want to take a day off to contribute in your personal capacity, or you want to attend a rally, or you want to volunteer for a campaign, then please do that.

And actually, I think that's, that's a good thing to do. I'm a civic-minded person myself, and I think being involved in local government and democracy is important, but it's not Uber's job. Our job is to build a great product to serve our customers, and then contribute locally in ways that, that we can on issues where I think we have a lot of opportunity to have a positive impact.

Niki: And then I would make the caveat that when you have employees who are directly impacted, I remember there was a moment during, right after President Trump's inauguration when we had employees who could not get back into the country.

Jill: Yes. 100%!!

Niki: And they had green cards.

Jill: Yes. 100%!!

Niki: And that was unbelievable.

Jill: And then the company should step in and help.

Niki: Of course. As we did.

Niki: Yes. I would make that caveat, but I agree. I think in the political, it's just focus on the tech, focus on what you're doing for people, and then encourage people to get involved, but it's a, it's a topic that comes up a lot in this town. [Jill: Yes] When CEOs come for business round table [Jill: Yes] or they're coming for the White House Correspondents Dinner [Jill: Yes], they're all going to be talking about what they need to do.

So I think it's good advice.

Jill: [wryly] It was a hot topic at Davos this year. That's for sure.

Niki: I'll bet! Okay, let's end on, do you have any advice for people who want to shift from politics into tech? Or just professional advice in general? [Jill: Sure] What's your top tip for people?

Jill: So, again, I think we talked about it. Say yes.

Say yes to new opportunities, to new ideas, to a chance to meet new people. Y’know, I think you, I reject this notion of, kind, of five-year plans or ten-year plans. My career has always evolved. I do think it's important to have a sense of what you want to do. It's your career. You have to have ownership and agency over it, and careers are individual decisions.

And so that's important. People are, in my experience, incredibly willing to help you, but you have to be able to say what you think you might want to do so people can square that circle alongside you.

And then the second thing I'd say is, find people who have the types of jobs that you want to have and talk to them about how they got there and what they did. If you're really specific about understanding, y’know, who's in a path or in a lane that is exciting to you, people are really generous with their time when, when you reach out.

Even still, I do this. I reach out to people to say, “I think you're really interesting. I'd love to have a coffee when I'm next to New York or in San Francisco or wherever.” And people are just genuinely, I think, interested in people who have a strong point of view and are, are coming at them with a, with a specific reason.

Niki: And I think there's something inspirational, I think, about your career, but making bold choices. [Jill: chuckles] I think people think that there's, like, a correct decision. [Niki: Yeah] And I don't find that there is.

Jill: No, and you can always reverse out of things, right?

Y’know, I've had moments in my career where I think, “Ooh, this is a little different than, than I perhaps thought it was going to be.” Or, y’know, “I'm a bit bored and I have kind of itchy feet and I need to think about doing something else.” [Niki: yeah] if you're, again, if you're clear about what that something else might be, it doesn't have to be 100 percent fleshed out, but I think I want to move in this direction.You can get there.

And again, y’know, you can switch jobs, you can move places, there's no rule in life that says you have to be in this patch of the world for the rest of your life.

Niki: This is actually a piece of advice you gave me! I was sort of tapped out at Google [Jill: yeah], but I really liked working for Eric Schmidt, it was this unbelievably well-run company and we talked, I think you were still in London, and you said, like, “Google's not the only place on earth to work.”

Jill: Absolutely not! Y’know, I always think about this. Just yesterday I emailed my older brother and I said, ”I think we should buy a tulip farm in Oregon.” [Niki: laughs] Y’know, I'm always thinking about what, what might be interesting and other things that, that I might do and in no way, shape, or form do I think about my life as, y’know, well, “This is what I'm going to do forever and this is, this is where I'm going to live forever.”

I'm 42 years old. I've got a lot of room to run.

Niki: You do!  You do!  Thank you so much for coming on. I love this conversation.

Jill: Thank you.

Niki: And I'm glad you're back in Washington.

Jill: Thank you. We're really excited to be here, I should say, and she said it was okay for me to say this, but my, my oldest daughter, Ava, has something called double deficit dyslexia, which is a very severe form of dyslexia.

And we moved here so that she could come to Lab and it also happens to be a place where I can work. So if I, if there are any parents out there who are struggling with a child who has a language based learning difference and think that I could be of help or an ear for them. I'm Jill@Uber and I'd love to, to chat about it our experience.

Niki: I'm glad you brought that up. We actually know a couple of people who've had kids in that school and have.

Jill: It is a phenomenal life-changing experience and I am so grateful for everything they do there!

Niki:  Okay, wonderful. Thank you for offering that to people too.

Jill: Of course. Thanks for having me.